azurelunatic | "I don't like children" and rudeness

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"I don't like children" and rudeness

It occurred to me that many if not most of the problems with children that people who don't like children have can be covered by "I don't like rude people" as well as it can be by "I don't like children".

Granted, there are some uniquely annoying childish things, such as having a screaming meltdown in a public place at the expense of the ears of parent/guardian/onlookers, that "rude people" doesn't include. That's a part of having kids that no one enjoys. Some have learned to deal with it better than others -- I ran into a lady on the bus who was smacking her children for every little thing. Not the kid who was having the meltdown, granted, but ... ugh. Any parent/guardian who can emerge from a kid meltdown in public scenario without yelling at the kid louder than the kid or making with the spanking, I count as a saint, and possibly beyond human. (Or, maybe, with the patience of a saint, or with nothing they can really do besides shut up to make the situation better...)

But I digress.

Children talking loudly and repetitively about something far too close to you? Allow me to introduce you to the former co-worker of a friend, "TMI Woman", who goes on and on about personal issues, much too loud, on the phone with assorted friends, on company time. Kids babbling at the tops of their lungs? Could turn it down. TMI Woman? Could turn it down.

Someone complained about children on a train watching movies on one of those small DVD players. No headphones. I ran into a man on the bus doing the same thing. It's just as annoying when an adult does it.

I'm sure there are other things that those who are disposed to think of children with annoyance think of as typical child behaviours, reinforcing their poor opinion of children, that are also annoying and rude when adults do it. Anyone care to fill in some that I've missed?

There are some things that kids just do when letting their hair down and being kids. Kids playing together outside, or at home, are bound to be noisy. Excited small children shriek. Kids think it's hilarious to repeat the same thing over and over and over. (Some adults do too. It can be trained out of kids, witness the Little Fayoumis. Adults... agggggh.)

I know I'm probably missing some things, because I'm OK with kids for the most part. I'm OK with kids who have someone responsible for them with them who is keeping them within the bounds of situational politeness. I'm OK with kids who are on their own and behaving themselves. I am OK with being responsible for keeping kids within the bounds of situational politeness. I am sympathetic to the plight of responsible parties who have a kid who has progressed past the bounds of situational politeness due to circumstances beyond anyone's immediate control. I am not OK with kids who are not being kept within the bounds of situational politeness due to the inattention, apathy, laissez-faire attitude, or absence of responsible parties. I am nervous around babies because I have a thing about meaningful interaction with another person being based on the ability to converse.

So. Um. Thoughts?

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The problem, at least what I've found, is that while you occationally find an adult that does one of these things, kids do it all the time.

I try to keep in mind that kids have the right and actually should be kids. I was a kid. I did all sorts of annoying, bothersome, kidthings that probably drove every adult around me up a tree at times. But, I got it out of my system.

Sometimes I feel I was a member of the last generation of real kids... kids that didn't have therapy, that didn't go to spas to relax, that didn't have scheduals, planners, appointments, and were being pushed to be little adults before they were ready. We were kids. We went outside. We were outside all the time. Really. Our parents not only encouraged us to go outside, they practically forced us to. Especially when we felt most like being kids. "Bored? Go out and play! Rain? Why should that stop you? GO OUT AND PLAY! Before Mommy beats you senseless and loses her chance to win Parent of the Year!"

I've noticed there are more adults getting "rude" and I think some of that is they didn't have a chance to "Get over it" as kids. How can a kid who had an organized schedual of music lessons, sporting events, etc. have ever had enough time to make proper fart noises for six hours straight? So, now they have to make up for that, by being 30 years old and making fart jokes or screaming loudly into their cell phone about what they're ordering for dinner.

For the most part, kids bother me when they are deliberately acting up in a situation where they shouldn't. (Such as a movie) and in most cases, who I'm annoyed at is the parent, for attempting to keep the child there, when clearly they have lost control. Half of these "kid acting up" situations are clearly that the kid is in a place a kid doesn't want to be. But the parent doesn't want to hear that. They want to go to the movie, thus Little Jessica or Little Joshua wants to go to the movie too. It doesn't matter that the movie is a drama, rated R, and the entire concept is completely above the kid's head... Mommy and Daddy want to go, thus the kid did too.

As for a kid having a meltdown in public, my theory is that adults hate it so much because we can't do it. Let's be honest, haven't we all had days where we'd just like to plant our feet on the floor, throw our heads back and howl till we're blue in the face? But we can't. We are Responsible Adults Now. We're supposed to frown on such things. So, when we see the kid having a meltdown, there is a small part of us that wants to join right in, but we can't ,so we pretend we hate it. We do hate it, because it's not us doing it.

Have you noticed how many "rude children" seem to be the children of "rude adults"? It seems rather typical...
The other day, I was walking home, and I saw a father walking with his wife and two year old son. He was actually teaching the son to point at strangers and say "fuck you, you stupid bitch", rewarding him with praise when he did so and showing dissappointment when he didn't. When the mother protested this, of course, the father became verbally abusive.
I'd say rude people are a cycle. I'm not saying it's always entirely the parents... but if you watch and observe, there's a definite pattern that emerges.

Kids are a responsibility if they are around me. Other adults are not. Seriously, if I'm at a pool and there is a kid around I can't fully concentrate on my book/conversation/daydream about Steven Sabados. Part of my mind is on whether or not the kid is safe. This isn't the kid's fault. It's still an annoyance.

Kids under a certain age are not toilet trained. Most adults are. There will definitely be a lag between the wetting or filling of the diaper and the changing thereof. Again, not the kid's fault. But I still hate the smell. And when people are bringing the kids to the office the smell gets in the hall and can linger for as much as an hour. Ugh.

And combining the two above issues, most adults don't piss in swimming pools. Most kids under a certain age do. I've had to stop swimming in certain pools because young kids turned them into big urine specimen jars. I don't care how much chlorine is in the water, that's just disgusting.

I don't hate kids even though I often say I do. I just have no patience for them when they are rude, manipulative, precocious and disrespectful. I can understand why some children act out and are badly behaved as a product of their parents and environment, but it doesn't help me want to be near them.

I don't want children of my own, for selfish reasons, but I am fairly happy with other people's children when they are relatively well behaved. I agree that kids are noisy and excitable, that's just because they haven't learnt what is appropriate and what isn't, it's perfectly understandable.

Adults have screaming meltdowns in public places too, usually in a lower key and with more cursewords.

I don't like a lot of "bad parent" behaviors: snapping at kids, saying "Boys will be boys", ignoring kids, taking kids to inappropriate places or not taking kids out of places when they need it, ramming strollers into other people[1], and so forth. I don't like shrieking, either happy or sad, and I don't like it from small children or from "aren't I cute" grown women. I don't like whining, which does tend to be kid-correlated, although it's in the same internal classification as look-at-me flirting behavior, which is adult-correlated. I find adults far more likely to try to start or persist in loud obnoxious conversation on public transit, both with me and just in my earshot, than kids are. I don't have a good sense of smell, so I don't tend to notice diaper problems, but I occasionally notice lack-of-bathing problems, and boy howdy do I hate cigarette smoke and its residue.

I don't like loudness, I don't like high-pitched noises, I don't like noxious chemicals, and I don't like being around bad parenting. Some of these correlate with children, some with adult+children combos, some with adults. The people I usually find myself being annoyed by are teenagers and young adults with kids.

[1] Are strollers that hard to maneuver, or is the SUV mentality where people think that it's appropriate to hit other people as long as there's a mechanical intermediary? Between the strollers and the parents who don't understand that dehydrated sunburnt five-year-olds can't pretend interest in adult things for hours on end, country fairs and the like can get pretty annoying.

I think the main reason someone who's melting down in public annoys me is because I pick up on it. If I'm around cranky people, the world is a little bit uglier and feels a little more out-to-get me. If I'm around cranky people who are actively outputting crankiness, everything's uglier and more annoying. Screaming fits are a very effective way of outputting crankiness, and not one I can ignore by looking away.

Then again, I don't tend to want to scream. I tend to want to make Pointed Comments and smash things/people. This might spoil screaming-fit wistfulness for me.

The problem, at least what I've found, is that while you occationally find an adult that does one of these things, kids do it all the time.

I would argue that it is only poorly disciplined children who do the "normal" annoying kid things. About the worst thing that my kids do is use a too-loud speaking voice (but they respond well to being told they're too loud), and Grace will talk endlessly if you don't stop her. But I know a LOT of adults who talk endlessly about themselves if you don't stop them - it's a personality trait, not a child-thing. (Especially 'cause only one out of my 5 children, so far, has done it. None of the others babble like she does.)

My kids have NEVER had a "meltdown" in public. Worst thing any of them has ever done was to plop his butt down on the store floor in a silent tantrum. He got his butt pulled back up off the store floor and told if he didn't behave he would be taken out to the car and spanked. He stopped. He pouted, but that's about it.

I never say I don't like kids. I *have* been known to say I don't like OPK's - Other People's Kids - but that's only because most people do NOTHING to curb their children being total evil bitches.

I blame it all on the "children are innocent" mindset. People don't restrain their kids until they're old enough that it's not "cute" anymore when they do things wrong, by which time it's frequently too late. I know, on the other hand, that children are born completely me-centered, selfish, and willing to do *anything* to get their way. They have to be *taught* polite behaviour. Some people learn it on their own, slowly, over the years, but only when they get old enough that being selfishly rude no longer gets them what they want - they'll learn a veneer of civilized behaviour, being "polite". If parents actually take the time to *teach* the brats good behaviour while they're still little, there wouldn't be so much difficulty.

I speak with the voice of authority - a person with children who frequently astonish random strangers by behaving like real people instead of evil hooligans. :D

My observations (to some degree agreed with by my fiancee- not right this moment, it's a conversation that we have every now and then) is that although the kids are rude, that's actually a symptom of bad parenting.
Many parents don't actually think of themselves as being parents- they didn't have the kid(s) in order to be parents, they had the kid(s) to prove that they really are grown up, see, this proves it, I'm an adult, I'm an adult, I'm an adult!
Now, if they really were mature adults, their kid(s) wouldn't be any problem. But what you see is that they ignore the child until a certain amount of noise has been made, while they're watching their tv show, or talking on the phone, or shopping, or whatever it is that they are under the impression is more important to pay attention to than the child... and the child has learned that they can get away with a certain amount of mayhem as long as they don't upset the custodial 'adult', and/or that they have to make a certain amount of noise for the custodial 'adult' to pay attention to them...
Which makes for a bad cess-ridden situation for everyone in the vicinity...
I know that neither I nor my siblings could have gotten away with this kind of behavior, and not only that, but we never would have thought of more than half of it, let alone tried it, and of the rest, we would have known better. We did know better. At a very early age.
I'm not saying that you have to beat on the brat to get their attention (or at least, not amongst my generation, but since that's the way they've been raised, for the current generation and a couple preceding and apparently all of those to come, that's the only way to actually get their attention, which truly gives me cause to fear somewhat what's going to happen in our society in 10 years or less (not that I'm not worried about what's happening to it right now))- I don't think that I was spanked any time after probably my 8^th birthday, but then again I didn't need to be- I pretty much blame Dr. Spock & other permissive SOBs for the mess we're in right now. Granted that they were reacting to child-rearing schemes that also weren't working, but the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction now.

God, I hope that that's some kind of comprehensible.

I don't mind kids when their parents are with them, being good and responsible parents, or when their parents have instilled in them the responsibility and self-check measures (good vs. bad vs. polite vs. impolite (societally acceptable?)) necessary for them to be on their own.
I have a problem with kids who are obviously unsupervised, either by an adult or internally.
I feel the same way about babies - if the person responsible for them is taking care of them, they're fine, but as soon as I encounter someone who is trying to hand their kid off to everyone else to take care of for them, I cannot stand them. Not the kid's nor the baby's fault, but the parent's.

I blame it all on the "children are innocent" mindset.

Yes. That and "Oh, boys will be boys." Heinlein has a good rant about the practice of not curbing a child's behavior until the child is an adult, and too old to change, in Starship Troopers.

I was reminded today of another common breakdown in parenting: small children will try to break anything they can get their hands on. It is a parent's job to keep them away from other people's stuff until they can be taught not to do it. "Small" here does not mean toddlers, although with proper parenting it might. (I don't know -- I'm not a parent or other form of childminder) It seems to mean "under ten".

That all makes a lot of sense.

I think that also there is a lack of parents saying, "There is a time and a place for fart jokes, and this is not it." Little Fayoumis is very clear on the concept of situational manners: he knows that there is a time for silly, and a time for polite, and when someone is silly in a time for polite, it is rude.

Then, my experience with Other People's Children is limited.

Oh, ugh.

And I'd say that some rude children are the children of generally polite parents who freak out when the child says something rude, so that the child says it on purpose to watch the parents flip out.

And then some of them are children of the ongoing TV generation, and are modeling off the dreadful examples shown on TV. The Little Fayoumis would be a flaming brat in need of a spanking or three a day if he were not nipped in the bud about much TV modeling.

*nods*

Just as Naomi can't fully immerse in her work while the LF is our responsibility. Coding and designing needs the priority interrupt, and kid automatically gets the priority interrupt.

That makes a lot of sense.

There are some of our local kid's friends who I don't ever want to have around again. Ever.

I think it's the SUV mentality. I was actually thinking about it in those terms earlier today -- thinking about the late Bujold wank on strollers some months ago, and how to phrase it so that both sides of that wank could agree on several key points.

Namely, aggressive driving where the personal space and safety space of others is invaded is never appropriate for most users, no matter the vehicle -- SUV, minivan, sporty car, semi, Mondo Stroller, umbrella stroller. (Emergency vehicles and private vehicles in emergency situations are special cases.)

Behavior that will harm children is not appropriate, including ramming involving a vehicle (car, stroller) that the child is in. On either side of the ramming -- driver doing the ramming with the kid-bearing vehicle as the weapon, other users ramming into a kid-bearing vehicle.

Leaving a vehicle (car, stroller) in the areas that others are trying to get through is not appropriate and dangerous. Leaving a kid in an inappropriately parked vehicle is worse.

Carrying heavy loads in a way that will harm the person doing the carrying is not appropriate -- whether the lifter is lifting a box or a baby.

I think if I'd been non-argh enough to come up with those points and submit them to the List at the appropriate point in time, a lot of wank could have been evaded.

I'd say that a stroller is probably easier to maneuver than an average shopping cart. Exact skill depends on operator. I can pivot shopping carts on the proverbial dime and have not yet collided with another user at rush hour at Wal*Mart. Others are not so lucky/skilful.

*nods*

And as satisfying as it would be to scream back at the red-faced howling kid who's clearly having a "I didn't get my way and I want to and I'll scream until I get my way" meltdown, "IF YOU DON'T SHUT YOUR FACE RIGHT NOW, YOU SELFISH MINIATURE TWERP, I'LL SHUT IT FOR YOU WITH DUCT TAPE!", that sort of tends to get one looked at far more strangely than the kid gets looked at.

*nods*

I don't think I was swatted very much longer after I was able to comprehend to my parents' satisfaction the connection between crime and punishment.

My corrections of the Little Fayoumis have been viewed as hair-trigger by some -- but he's a normal boisterous and sometimes obnoxious kid at home during playtime, and will behave excellently well to the point where he successfully sits in on college courses without creating a disruption, and has done this since the age of I think five.

I'd think so, even the great big kitchen-sink strollers, but I've been rammed *many* times by strollers and almost never by shopping carts, despite being around shopping carts much more often.

I think part of the problem is the parents are often as immature as the children. And I'm not talking about teenage parents. Where I work, it sometimes seems the very young parents try harder than the ones who are in their 30's.

It's hard to tell a child that fart jokes don't have a place in public, when Dad is licking his palms and blowing massive fart noises in the middle of a restaurant and guffawing loudly at his own wit.

It's impossible to expect any child to be better behaived than the parent raising him/her. And some parents, regardless of age, are terribly immature.

The problem, at least what I've found, is that while you occationally find an adult that does one of these things, kids do it all the time.

I probably didn't phrase that correctly. I don't mean that every child does it all the time, I meant that you're more likely to see children indulging in that type of behavior than you are to see adults. Yes, some adults go way above and beyond rude, but generally when you have a room full of adults and kids, you'll see more bad behavior from the kids. There might be a few who are doing it all the time... there might be some that don't indulge in any bad behavior, but chances are, all the kids will at some point do at least one thing that will make all the adults in the room raise a brow and go, "Ugh!"

As I said though, if anyone expects children to constantly behaive perfectly, they are living in a fairy tale world and would be better off staying home and watching 50's sitcoms. No one is perfect and children are... well, they're children, they haven't grown up yet, they are testing the rules. That's why children are supposed to have parents, to help them discover what is "good" and what is "Bad."

The problem is that some of these parents haven't learned the social graces themselves. As I said below, it's impossible to expect a child to be better behaived than the people raising him/her. And from my POV, working with the general public, I've seen too many parents, who regardless of age, are way too immature to be raising children.

Okay, either way, there are times when we'd all like to act in a way that is Entirely Inappropriate for the situation. But, most of us are controlled by the behaivor we've learned as we grew up. Kids don't have that yet. Toddlers have trouble thinking beyond the right now, and right now, they feel like having a meltdown.

Strangely, the meltdown is less likely to upset me as how adult with the child treats it. If the adult makes an effort to stop the meltdown, be it take child outside, try to find out what's bothering the child, comfort the child, I can usually let it pass. Where I start getting edgy is if the parent starts belittling the child. "Aww, having a baby fit? Well, guess what, I'm gonna tell Santa to skip our house!" or hitting the child. I mean, the kid is already on high voltage, yelling at him/her or hitting him/her is sorta like trying to put out the fire with a bucket of lighter fluid.

I see more of the belittling than I do the hitting, which I suppose is better... but every time I see a parent making fun of their child or goading them further, I just have to stop myself from going over and ragging on them and saying, "How do YOU like it? How does it make YOU feel? Aww, little parent getting all upset now?"

Dear gods, the pain of that mental image...

Seeing it was even worse. And yes, I have seen it. More than once. Being a waitress you learn what a bunch of screwball the general pubic really is.

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"I don't like children" and rudeness

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