The Saudis are so fucking broken. I just can't follow the logical progression of their justice system. CNN reported that several citizens, upon hearing to the pardon of these victims, called for their immediate beheading. I mean, wtf?
If one believes that the only honor a woman holds is between her legs ...
... It really doesn't come off so differently to me than certain crazy-reactionary-religious elements of the US. But then, I'm a reasonable outsider and a cynic.
Also note that her appeal resulted in a more severe sentence. Kinda hard to have faith in an appeals system when that is an allowed outcome.
Of course, the headlines all over the place are a tad misleading. It's like a headline from my recent run in with a traffic cop being, "Man who spanks children pulled over by cop." Yes, I spank my children. Yes, I was pulled over by a cop. I, however, was not pulled over by a cop because I was spanking my children. This is the same case here. She was sentenced due to her being alone with a non-closely related male before she was raped, not because she was raped. I'm not saying the law is right or that her speaking up was wrong, but this is sort of akin to someone calling the police to report that their roommate stole their stash of illegal drugs. She did something, right or wrong, that is illegal in Saudi Arabia, then got raped while doing it, and reported the rape. Had she only been raped, I doubt they would have charged her with the crime of being alone with a man who wasn't a close relative.
Maybe the rest of the world will start waking up to the fact that the Middle East is filled with countries that have human rights that were in vogue during the 5th Century C.E. and that haven't budged since.
She wasn't raped by the man she was prosecuted for being alone with, though. In fact, he was also raped - and got a sentence of 90 lashes which probably wasn't pardoned. I don't think you can claim this is an issue of gender-bias here. They got the same sentence for the same crime after both being raped.
I think it is a difference of nature, because in the UK and the US there's no laws on who you can spend your time with in private, and few laws on what you can wear. If she'd been found out she would've been prosecuted - the fact that they were raped makes this an emotive case, but at it's core it's no different to something that probably happens every day.
Sorry if I was unclear. I didn't mean it as a gender bias question. IMO, "what were you wearing" and "who where you with" are both irrelevant questions to ask of the victim in a rape case. And "what were you wearing" (AFAIK) is one routinely asked (often, but not always, by a sleazy defense lawyer wanting to unsettle the victim) in the US, although things may be different in the UK. But I think I'll stick with "difference in degree, not in nature" on that point. (Although I'll readily agree it's a major difference no matter what.)
To make that kind of call, you'd need to know what the normal sentence is for that crime.
90 lashes probably isn't abnormal, and is what they were both originally sentenced to.
Having said that, the whole idea of criminalising a woman being on her own with a man she's not related to is terrifying enough without having to tie it to the rape.
I find it hard to sympathize with her - it's not like she was an innocent in this - she knew what she was doing was wrong and illegal and dangerous. I'm not saying that it's not horrible that she was rapes, but she knowingly put herself in a position where she was unprotected and vulnerable. If I go walking by myself in certain areas of certain cities (where I have no business being) I know that I will probably get shot or raped or robbed, so when it happens I have no one to blame but myself (which is why I don't go there.)
I wonder, though - how does Saudi Arabia's repeat offender rate line up against the US? I usually lean towards thinking we need to return to physical punishment for crime rather than giving them free room and board for years.
Well, she got punished because she got raped in the process of breaking the law (she admitted having an affair with the man) and the punishment was increased because she went public with details after the trial (which she was specifically told not to by the court - her lawyer got in massive trouble for it too.)
We don't have to agree with the laws of other countries, but...well, she knew what the law was, and what the punishment was, and broke it anyway. I think two hundred lashes is a bit extreme, but it's not my place to say what is proper and what is not in their justice system. I'm a bit more disturbed that our country is trying to butt in and put pressure on the Saudi government - it's not our place to do that at all.
I actually wish they would bring back those kinds of punishments for here - it would be a lot more effective a deterrent than locking young people up for years in crime training facilities prison.
(Also, for me that's about my normal amount of cleavage, I'd have to dress a lot more provocatively if I wanted to look like a tart in comparison to my usual outfits!)
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azurelunatic) wrote2007-12-17 10:24 pm
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... It really doesn't come off so differently to me than certain crazy-reactionary-religious elements of the US. But then, I'm a reasonable outsider and a cynic.
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Of course, the headlines all over the place are a tad misleading. It's like a headline from my recent run in with a traffic cop being, "Man who spanks children pulled over by cop." Yes, I spank my children. Yes, I was pulled over by a cop. I, however, was not pulled over by a cop because I was spanking my children. This is the same case here. She was sentenced due to her being alone with a non-closely related male before she was raped, not because she was raped. I'm not saying the law is right or that her speaking up was wrong, but this is sort of akin to someone calling the police to report that their roommate stole their stash of illegal drugs. She did something, right or wrong, that is illegal in Saudi Arabia, then got raped while doing it, and reported the rape. Had she only been raped, I doubt they would have charged her with the crime of being alone with a man who wasn't a close relative.
Maybe the rest of the world will start waking up to the fact that the Middle East is filled with countries that have human rights that were in vogue during the 5th Century C.E. and that haven't budged since.
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I think it is a difference of nature, because in the UK and the US there's no laws on who you can spend your time with in private, and few laws on what you can wear. If she'd been found out she would've been prosecuted - the fact that they were raped makes this an emotive case, but at it's core it's no different to something that probably happens every day.
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90 lashes probably isn't abnormal, and is what they were both originally sentenced to.
Having said that, the whole idea of criminalising a woman being on her own with a man she's not related to is terrifying enough without having to tie it to the rape.
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I wonder, though - how does Saudi Arabia's repeat offender rate line up against the US? I usually lean towards thinking we need to return to physical punishment for crime rather than giving them free room and board for years.
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We don't have to agree with the laws of other countries, but...well, she knew what the law was, and what the punishment was, and broke it anyway. I think two hundred lashes is a bit extreme, but it's not my place to say what is proper and what is not in their justice system. I'm a bit more disturbed that our country is trying to butt in and put pressure on the Saudi government - it's not our place to do that at all.
I actually wish they would bring back those kinds of punishments for here - it would be a lot more effective a deterrent than locking young people up for years in
crime training facilitiesprison.no subject
(Since now!)
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Oooh, cleavage.
(Also, for me that's about my normal amount of cleavage, I'd have to dress a lot more provocatively if I wanted to look like a tart in comparison to my usual outfits!)
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