22 things other people think their sons should know about women/relationships

[azurelunatic]

22 Things We’ll Teach Our Sons About Women And Relationships ... dear me! How heteronormative!

So let's see what I think of these.

1. Pick your battles.
Yes. This really goes for everyone, not just men.

2. Going down is more intimate than sex, but it shouldn’t be scary.
Uhhh. It shouldn't be scary, and it is intimate. But going down is sex, and it's also less of a pregnancy risk. And turn about is fair play.

3. Walk on the outside (closer to the street) of your female companion.
Say what? Is this one of those etiquette guide things that matter if you're into the heavy gender roles scene? I'd say read up in a Miss Manners manual if you're shaky on social norms, and then suit yourself and any companion you're with on whether anyone will be performing gender roles tonight. But if both of you are doing the strong gender roles thing, you owe it to both of you to know what they are.

4. Saying “You’re being crazy” is never an appropriate response, unless you want her to go postal on you.
Yeah, belittling someone is never appropriate, and if someone is acting irrationally, mocking them is just plain a bad plan, and that probably will lead to them acting even crazier. YMMV, but try minimizing the damage while they're acting irrationally, then bringing it up in a non-belittling fashion once they've saned up.

5. Cooking, cleaning, and taking care of kids are things men can actually do as well as women.
True.

6. Keep backup supplies of quality chocolate in the house for when she’s on the rag.
The principle -- learn the little luxuries that bring your partner comfort, and deploy something unexpected when they're having a bad day -- is sound. The phrasing, ugh. My father was actually the one who taught me how to do this, by example. He would pay attention when people made noise about the little things they wanted (but never thought to get for themselves) and would then remember that, and when someone was having a bad day or for no particular reason at all, he would deploy something interesting.

7. Buying tampons and other feminine products shouldn’t embarrass you—everyone knows they’re not for you.
This is true! There's a nice hate-on in the comments of the original article for women who are so careless and/or thoughtless to let themselves get caught short and force this on someone, but a) just because it's a guy buying feminine products does not mean that it's an emergency; it could be that it's on the shopping list and he's shopping; b) there are other reasons besides carelessness that someone could get caught short (miscalculation of how much you'd need, someone else raiding your stash, biological insanity), c) even if it is carelessness or thoughtlessness, it's not honestly that much worse than a last-minute grocery trip for some forgotten recipe component.

8. Women like compliments and gifts.
Depends on the person. See http://www.fivelovelanguages.com/ -- even if it's a bit heteronormative too, it's a damn good assessment.

9. Earning less than her shouldn’t be emasculating.
This is true! It should not be! And it reinforces the glass ceiling.

10. Your legs really don’t need to be open that wide.
If you're wearing pants that are tight enough to squish your package unless your legs are wide open, and as a lifestyle thing rather than a dress-up or a costume ... why!?!

11. Be on time, even if she usually isn’t.
*sigh* Being on time is a good thing for everybody; consistency is also a good thing. If you're going to be late, advise. If you're running early, advise. But even if someone usually runs late, don't count on them to do that, or else they might get there on time and you might not be there. See above about advising if running late.

12. Don’t be a pouty puppy when shopping with her.
It's things like this that alternately want to make me declare that I'm not a woman, and/or that these women need to get out of my gender.
1) "Shopping" as a sport is an activity that needs to be confined to the people with an actual interest in that sport. (Bring me along on an electronics shopping trip, but if you expect me to go to more than two clothes places in a row, expect me to have a book and use it.)
2) All partners are going to do stuff that their partner is not into. Do not force them to participate in something that they're really not into; conversely, don't feel obliged to feign interest in something that bores you.
3) If you are coming along on an activity that you know you loathe, bring along some form of portable entertainment if at all possible. Books are good. Portable electronic devices are also good.
4) If you know you're doing something that you like and your partner is not that into, and you have dragged them along for the togetherness, do not be surprised or hurt if they make with the book or gameboy.

13. She should never be able to control you with sex.
Word. Neither of you should be controlling each other with anything; if you do find that you do "have to" be controlling with/about something, seek counseling if you can't get it straightened out on your own.

14. Find out what her favorite flower is.
See #6.

15. If you like her, then don’t buy her shoes; it’s bad luck.
Um, what? I guess there's a superstition, but I'd never heard of it.

16. Smiling and nodding aren’t the same as listening.
This is true. But, uh, if you're inclined to babble about anything, don't always expect rapt attention.

17. Skid marks aren’t sexy or hygienic.
WORD.

18. It’s OK to cry in front of her, but keep the blubbering to a minimum.
By all means, cry. But keep an eye on how much and why you're crying. Too-frequent bawling can indicate other problems, such as attaching too much importance to an event so if it doesn't go exactly as planned it's all ruined, or not keeping things in perspective.

19. Personality goes a long way.
It does! Both yours and theirs. No matter how attractive you are, if you're also an asshole I will stop being able to appreciate your charms. People who routinely spend hours and hours cultivating their appearance don't have those hours to devote to other things, such as any other pursuit you may find interesting. If you insist on supermodel looks, be prepared for the time sink it takes to cultivate it.

20. At some point she’ll be more important than your mother.
I suppose.

21. You will never completely understand women.
Does any human ever completely understand any other human?

22. Oh yeah, and no woman will ever be good enough for my baby!
If you say so.

Comments

[yvi]

6. Keep backup supplies of quality chocolate in the house for when she’s on the rag.

...

I don't even eat chocolate when I have my period. Nice stereotype.

7. Buying tampons and other feminine products shouldn’t embarrass you—everyone knows they’re not for you.

Buying 'feminine products' shouldn't be embarrassing for anyone, which is a far bigger problem.

2) All partners are going to do stuff that their partner is not into. Do not force them to participate in something that they're really not into; conversely, don't feel obliged to feign interest in something that bores you.

Oh yes! I mean, sure, it's nice to compromise and have your partner agree to come with you if you want company, but it should also be okay for him to say no.

Hmm, don't quite know what to make of this list. Some good stuff buried in with 'know her favorite flower' (do I have to have a favorite flower?).

[azurelunatic]

I have a favorite flower. But good fic can be just as good as or better than chocolate or flowers.

[fairlight]

I know my partner's favorite flower.

I actually do make use of this information on a regular basis.

Of course, we're both men, he's actually way butcher than me...and he'd rather eat/smell them than look at them.

IDK. Whatevs.

[foxfirefey]

I don't know about other people, but it'd be bad to buy me shoes because I'm so hard to fit correctly.

[azurelunatic]

Same with Guide Dog Aunt. She has short, wide feet that pretty much require custom shoes so she doesn't get the clown-shoe effect in the toes.

[nova]

re: bad luck gifts link. huh. interestiiiiing. never heard of or thought of those before (except re-gifting, which duh, bad.)

[azurelunatic]

I had heard of the knife thing, where they must buy it from you with a penny lest the knife cut your love. (I ran into it in the Anne of Green Gables series.) But most of the rest, I had not heard of.

[cleverthylacine]

You walk on the outside of the street because outside is the dangerous side, supposedly.

I was taught this rule by my very butch girlfriend when I was 15; she was always going nuts because I hate to feel crowded and tend to walk on the outside myself.

Also, the thing about wide open legs is that when a man and a woman are sitting on bus seats together, or when men sit next to women on airplanes and in other tight places, men have a tendency to insist on sitting with their legs so wide open that there's not room for the woman's legs unless she crosses them or sits on only half the seat.

[juliet]

More generally, women will tend to take up less space (taught to sit with knees together etc), and will tend not to assert their right over their space when being crowded by men. I have deliberately un-learnt this, myself. (I don't go into the next seat's space, as many men will, but I do sit with my knees apart & I occupy my own space!)

[liv]

Very nice fisking, thank you.

[torachan]

Here via facetofcathy. Nice commentary. The list gives me an eye-twitch like nobody's business. Chock full of stereotypes (women are all shopaholics who love chocolate and flowers!) and then #21 just makes me want to hurt people badly. Women and men are not different species!

[right.livejournal.com]

A lot of the things on here are sort of common sense in any relationship, not just with a girlfriend or significant other.

[azurelunatic]

Indeed.

I hate the concept that male and female are practically different species that will never understand each other. According to that concept, I'm really not a woman, because I don't get the clothes and makeup geekery (I mean, I like clothes just fine, and I will occasionally geek out over makeup, but it is an occasional binge and not a lifestyle) and I do get computers and a certain amount of car stuff, although sports generally leave me cold. I don't appreciate these women trying to assimilate me into their culture by claiming it to be a common culture shared by virtue of being female, and I don't appreciate being edged out of being female by not sharing in that culture.

[pauamma]

everyone knows they’re not for you

That's not always true, actually, although it's usually the case. (And the look on the face of the (female) drugstore employee when I answered her "I take it these aren't for you?" comment was Most Entertaining.)

[leora.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. My brother's med kit included tampons with it. When he was climbing Mount Whitney (highest elevation in the continental US) he found they were really useful for hmm I forget, nosebleeds or ear bleeding. Tampons have been used as initial emergency treatment on bullet wounds, because they're designed to be sterile for bodily insertion, expand to umm plug a hole, and absorb blood. Useful little devices.

However, when someone is buying tampons, I think it is generally inappropriate to ask them what they intend to do with them.

[dolorous-ett.livejournal.com]

Why does everyone assume that women love shopping? I live in fear that some of my partner's female classmates are going to make good on their threat to take me clothes shopping one day. *shudders* Why can't they take him? He actually likes shopping.

[azurelunatic]

It's so much part of the girly-girl culture. It's a bit scary.

Clothes shopping is a mixed item. On the one hand, it does generally result in one being better-turned-out afterwards. On the other... clothes shopping. :(

[kestrelct.livejournal.com]

Ugh, people occasionally drag me out clothes shopping when I've, say, run out of pants without holes in them. It's miserable. I was almost reduced to tears the last time my partner took me bra shopping. Book shopping, great. Craft supply shopping, sure. Hell, chocolate shopping I can get behind. But clothes? AWFUL.

[tsjafo.livejournal.com]

I disagree with some of these and I find some of the wording offensive. "on the rag"?

Yet I do see an increase in men trying to find a guide to civilized behavior. The Artofmanliness.com website has issues but it is trying to describe civilized behavior, albeit based on eary 20th century concepts.

My generation (1960s) cast out oppressive rules and roles with such abandon that we ended up with an anything goes attitude. But we went too far, tossing out the baby with the bathwater as it were. Now we have a learn it as you go along culture that is doing, in my opinion, more harm than good.

I'd love to see more interest in working out what exactly civilized behavior means and how to pass that information on, not based on gender.

[azurelunatic]

Part of the problem with learning civilized behavior is that there are quite a few things that one can't just do by rote anymore. You have to think about the other party's wishes, and that's an art in itself.

[xinef.livejournal.com]

1. Works with kids too!
2. I agree with you.
3. My Dad always did that, Mum too with us kids. I tended to do it with my boys when they were young. I notice if a man does it, but don't tend to notice if they don't! Not really important any more (except with kids where it is a good idea to keep them from running into the street!).
4. Appropriate for both genders!
5. You bet.
6. I just find that wording extremely offensive. I agree with your comments.
7. Yup. Is one thing that helped make me realize my husband was worth keeping, when he did that for me before we were even married and I wasn't feeling well.
8. Yes, but not all of the time. When appropriate.
9. True.
10. If there is room, doesn't really matter most of the time. Not something I notice unless someone is crowding me.
11. Absolutely! I'm very much an "on time" person and it drives me nuts when people are consistently late.
12. True, with caveats. I agree with your comments. My husband does not like random window shopping, but is great if I'm looking for something specific. He's good at knowing what looks good on me and what doesn't and saying so in a non-threatening way. I'm not a recreational shopper either, so we don't conflict in that way.
13. Works both ways, I agree with you.
14. Yup, you got it right, see my additional comments re 6.
15. Probably not a great idea to buy shoes for anyone else unless they are there to try them on, anyhow.
16. Yup.
17. I so agree!
18. With the rare exception for when blubbering is ok - death of close friend, relative, etc.
19. Well duh. Physical attraction only last so long. Personality is what keeps couples together. Friends, too, for that matter.
20. I hope so!
21. I agree with you. And having had two sons, I also think that there are some gender things that most folks of the other gender just don't get.
22. Oh give me a break! I'd love to see my sons settled down in a mutually respectful and loving relationship (in a few years, they are both too young yet!).

[iroshi.livejournal.com]

3. My Dad always did that, Mum too with us kids. I tended to do it with my boys when they were young. I notice if a man does it, but don't tend to notice if they don't! Not really important any more (except with kids where it is a good idea to keep them from running into the street!).

It's rational and necessary with children (speaking as someone who's had 7 of them) but if I caught someone purposefully moving around me to get on the outside of the sidewalk, I'd probably hit them.

Of course, when my hubby and I got together it used to be funny that we took turns taking the seat that faced the exit in restaurants and things.

[iroshi.livejournal.com]

9. Earning less than her shouldn’t be emasculating.
This is true! It should not be! And it reinforces the glass ceiling.

We get SO much trouble with this one, with Chris being the stay-at-home parent. He can't discuss money problems with nearly *anyone*, because their answer is always, "Well, why don't you go get a job?!" (Which of course isn't an answer, because daycare for the two would cost nearly as much as he would make.) And while he thinks they would, I guarantee that the people saying this to him would not say the same thing if *I* were the one staying at home. Nobody tells a stay-at-home mom to go get a job!

21. You will never completely understand women.
Does any human ever completely understand any other human?

Actually, I gotta agree with him on this one. I never realized how completely fucked up most women are until I started dating them. Seriously, Az, you got no clue how most women are really, really WEIRD. Not weird like you or me. Just...there is no possible way for a male brain to understand them. (I know that even though I got female parts, I got a male brain in my head, so I can say this.) Yeah, you can't understand another human completely, but you can't understand a woman AT ALL. Especially one you're dating. They make more sense without romantic interaction, for some reason.

[azurelunatic]

There's this attitude amongst That Culture of Women that when one's dating a man, he's ... like unto the Enemy. So it's a campaign against him, and one does not give vital information to the Enemy.

I ... would not, could not, date an Enemy.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

Um, I'm feeling rather stupid here, but I don't understand #17. Help?

Otherwise, this is a fair amount of common sense tricked out in sexist language. It's too bad.

[azurelunatic]

You really don't want to understand #17. It is a laundry problem of the underpants.

[leora.livejournal.com]

2. If we replace "sex" with "intercourse" (I could be more specific) then it's entirely a matter of opinion. Personally, I don't agree. But I certainly agree it may be so for some people.

6. I hate chocolate. I won't eat it. I dislike the smell. I prefer it not be near me.

12. Don't be a pouty puppy. Is there ever a circumstance where this is appropriate?

[corruptflame.livejournal.com]

Seven amuses me the most...mainly because the men I know would almost be proud to buy their women tampons. It's that 'yeah, I've got a girlfriend! Yeah, we're together long-term so she trusts me to buy these for her!' thing...

[azurelunatic]

Clearly, you know a more enlightened class of men than these frills.