I can't see Catlin homophobic.

[azurelunatic]

I was once amazingly offended (and the only reason I was offended and angered rather than hurt was because the world I live in has made me arm myself against this), in a fashion that I don't often get, by some Cyteen fanfic. In it, Ari II, Florian II, and Catlin II are exploring their relationship, but Catlin is reluctant to enter a sexual relationship with Ari, because apparently in that fan-author's interpretation of that universe, female homosexual behavior is seen as wrong and gross, and Catlin has internalized this concept. But she tries it anyway, and what do you know, OT3. And I was filled with horrid, angry, slappy rage, and utter surprise that the author could have even thought to take that choice of interpretation for that universe.

This is a universe with two canon male/male pairings. (Slash isn't the right term for them, since it's canon. "Gay" doesn't seem right either, at least not for Grant and Justin, because both of them had at least an adolescent interest in girls, even though they've since pretty much exclusively pair-bonded, and I'm very very reluctant to attempt to get into Justin's head as regards sexual orientation: even though he's fictional, it feels like he deserves at least that much respect for his privacy from me.) Yes, there's a lot of rampant heterosexuality; yes, Justin is surprised when Ari I has both Catlin and Florian participate in that "illicit intervention"; yes, Justin gets some static for pairing off with Grant. I read the surprise more for the group sex, and the static as trying any possible lever to Work someone, and a problem with his choice of partners (his Alpha companion rather than another CIT). From the other stuff, it sounded like heterosexuality is assumed until proven otherwise, but once otherwise was established, the fact of a same-sex relationship is not exceptionable.

I can see the role of homophobia in fictional universes. I can see the value in exploring and confronting it there. That form of homophobia, casual acceptance of a societal homophobic standard, does not seem to fit in that community, never mind what they think in Novgorod. Given that same-sex relationships are accepted at Resune at least once they happen, and that there's surely at least some biological component to it, I do not see Resune programming its azi to reject the concept. I also do not see either Florian or Catlin picking up casual homophobia from their environment.

It stood out to me. There are plenty of reasons why a sexual relationship with one's boss is a bad idea. There's never having given a thought to an intimate relationship with someone of the same sex before. (I surprised myself that way, though in retrospect I was indeed staring at my sister's violin teacher's tits an awful lot at age ~11.) There are many reasons why a CIT/azi relationship is a bad idea. Why having a relationship with someone for whom you're a bodyguard is a bad idea. So many different layers of possible wrong, and homophobia does not fit well enough into that universe that WHY PUT IT IN THERE, FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

Comments

[princessofgeeks]

yeah, this sounds to me like projection on the part of the author, perhaps, or at the very least a poor extrapolation.

I read the entire trilogy again when the fourth book came out, and enjoyed it all immensely all over again ( i loved those books like WOAH when they first came out; devoured them and reread them), but was very sad at noticing how the homosexuality was depicted in the canon as a poor substitute for the Real Thing. The male/male relationships were accepted (and of course the cyteen people saw nothing immoral about the azi/cit relationships, something that strikes me as a bit skeevy now because of the consent issues, but Grant is so amazingly well drawn that I just set all that aside when I read him omg I love him), and were completely socially acceptable, but it's pointed out several times that they happen to justin and to jordan because of some psychological flaw they have. and of course grant was created to be jordan's mate, because they already knew jordan was homosexual. so that was chilling too, in a way.

but either the author is bringing her own interpretation of what same-sex attraction is, or positing a given situation for cyteen's same sex attractions that we now would not understand as true, or something... and i don't recall many other same sex relationships at all other than the cloned cits.... correct me if i'm wrong. maybe denis? didn't he have an azi lover too?

anyway.

i need to look for more fic for that verse; i bet it could be awesome. i read a very poignant justin/grant first time once and i actually wanted to write one.

hi!
but i don't see, given all that background, that there is any grounds for caitlin's attitude being like that.

it's such a complex society; room in there for extrapolations that perhaps even cherryh had not fleshed out. i need to read it all again.

[thorfinn]

... Grr, what? Yeah, that would make me angry too. That par of the Cyteen-verse just doesn't work like that!

I guess some people like to project their own issues into a story, whether the universe supports them or not.

I do agree that it's possible there could be odd corners - but canon characters do have it pretty established that they're not homophobic at all, and nor is their immediate surrounding culture...

[azurelunatic]

I actually saw them noticing moral skeeviness about some of the azi/cit relationships, when Justin was questioned about whether it was really appropriate for him to be having that relationship with Grant: not because it was male/male or specifically because Grant was an azi, but because he was Grant's super, and that had opportunity for all sorts of wrongness for Grant.

It was Jane/Ollie that was the main other cit/azi pairing that I saw; I don't know that Denis's companion Seely was necessarily more than bodyguard and majordomo. And then Amy wound up with an azi bodyguard/lover.

[princessofgeeks]

right; still very heteronormative. dunno if that was intentional or unconscious on cherryh's part, but omg. let's update people!!!

i love all her work; she's probably my favorite hard science writer, but reading it 30 years later i totally saw stuff in it i did NOT see when I read it as a teenager.

thanks for the thinky!

and Ollie was SO WONDERFUL OMG. I loved him. AND grant.

[ilyena_sylph]

I remember that fic. Vividly. And with a great deal of... offense and anger.

I very much like your rant here about why.

[azurelunatic]

I'm sorry you were exposed to it, but I'm also glad that I wasn't the only one to react that way.

[cadenzamuse]

It took me until I was 21 to figure out that I was bi. I mean, the "oh god, am I a lesbian?" freakouts I had (one in high school and one on study abroad in college) should have been a clue, but lots of massive repression plus still liking guys plus leaning-a-little-towards-straight on the Kinsey scale all masked it. And then I figured it out and was like "Wow, I am stupid!" and "Hey, huge relief, I can stop repressing and just be me! WHEEEEEEEEE!" and it was awesome.

(And my awesome awesome boyfriend is so good about letting me be my own queer self, and poking me to get more involved in queer community so that I don't feel weirdly confined to being straight just because I'm dating het, so, um, YAY!)

This comment brought to you by your offhand comment about your sexuality taking you by surprise, and by wanting to give you some happy queer news to counteract an ucky fic. :) :) :)

(Also possibly by the meds I'm on, but at least they are meds that make me leave chatty cheerful comments on people's posts, and not the kind that make me have suicidal episodes. Heh.)

[thorfinn]

Aww, awesome bf and you! I have to confess to mostly just passing-for-het these days, mostly out of unwillingness to do bi-education-101 all the time.

[cadenzamuse]

For me, because I found Hot Guy before I ever had a chance to date a girl (he is the first person I ever dated, and honestly, it was like God pitched my life partner at me out of the sky, complete with just as much stubbornness as me, aggravating flaws that complement mine, and a stupid haircut), it's extra important to me (and to Hot Guy) that I do things to not pass for het, because I feel like I have more to "prove," since I don't actually have a "bisexual dating track record" or something ridiculous like that. It's tough. I still have that ugly bi insecurity of "maybe I don't count", but it definitely helps to have my queer church folks, and to march at Pride, and to at least have my boyfriend be a really respectful ally, and never feel like he looks at me like I'm a straight girl, just like I'm me.

[azurelunatic]

I questioned whether I was a lesbian a few times, but concluded that I couldn't be, because I liked guys. I had the advantage of being friends with the one out lesbian in the whole school. She was out by the 8th grade. I had the first "Hmm, am I actually bisexual?" conversation with myself on January 13, 1995 (I was 14), and I decided that no, I didn't think that I was -- because while I was not opposed to the concept of a relationship with another girl, I had never felt sexually aroused by another girl. Then on May 01 of the same year, I evidenced willingness to date a particular senior, and my friends had a come-to-Tatie talk with me about the implications. So then I was theoretically bisexual. And then another girl fell for the same guy I was going after, and there was a bit of drama there until her asshole ex told me that omg, I should be so mad because ANOTHER WOMAN WAS TRYING TO STEAL MY MAN. Since her ex was an asshole, I decided that we should form an alliance, and then I realized that I was actually attracted to her, aroused by her, and Joshie had this amazing glorious horrible moment of shouty realization while she was reclining (and repining, and oblivious to the rest of the universe) on the couch, and clutching my hand to her chest for comfort. And then there was the dance where we sat in each other's laps and amazingly managed to not make out, although I am not entirely sure how, because it would have been the logical thing to do.

[cadenzamuse]

Aww, hee. I love how oblivious we can be about ourselves until it's suddenly too blindingly obvious to ignore. (And I love your topical icon. :D )

[cadenzamuse]

And I should have used this icon, *sigh*.

[azurelunatic]

*giggle* Excellent icon.

[arkeiryn]

I don't have anything to add, but this made a lot of sense, and was well-written. Stupid fanfic author :P

[azurelunatic]

And the worst part of it is, I'm sure that they were meaning to write something meaningful and full of social justice and redemption. *sigh*

[azurelunatic]

It actually didn't read like that. It read like an author who desperately wanted to write a Character Gets Over Homophobia, Accepts Bisexuality story.

[azurelunatic]

I approve of this plan.