azurelunatic | Ooooh, cool quiz! ...and resulting discussion of religion

Current Music: Raffi

Ooooh, cool quiz! ...and resulting discussion of religion

So, which trickster is the Lunatic like?

I Am Ananse the Spider

Ananse the Spider of African folklore is both wise and foolish in the best tradition of tricksters. If you're like Ananse, you're clever and like to be thought well of, but sometimes you outsmart yourself. You're always trying to figure the best angle and you're intelligent and creative, but you have a crude streak. Still, you like to show off your knowledge and that makes you a good teacher..

Which Trickster are you?
Take the Trickster Test at www.isleofdreams.net

I was raised on Raffi, so in my head right now? "Anansi, he is a spider. Anansi, he is a man. Anansi, he is a clever one, he always has a plan." Good music there, if a little... well, being a flaming pagan now, I have to notice that there are quite a few things that I'd associate more with Christian themes in the music, a sort of "of course" that I overlooked. At thirteen, fourteen, what did I think about religion? "Of course I'm Christian. Isn't everybody?" Then I started to think about it a little more, and realized that many organized Christians look down upon magic...

Seriously. If you're a Christian, the best way to keep the Talented kids is to tell them that these powers were given to them by God, so you'd better use them as such. Don't make them need to seek another religion that will teach them how to use the powers. That's what happened to a few friends of mine back in Alaska. Granted, I wouldn't stay in a religion like that either.

I'm finding myself more religiously liberal now. Having gotten to know a few good Christians, not the "Good Christian" praised by those whose uptight ways are suited to marble statues, not humans; the ones who lie and cheat and are all-around nasty people, hiding behind the Church -- I'm talking about good, decent, honest, insightful, curious people, who have an honest faith and have touched the Divine by that face -- I am becoming more accepting when someone states that as their religion; I don't automatically go into the bashing defensive mode that far too many Pagans have had to adopt to keep from getting themselves trashed by the nasty ones. I'm willing to accept, finally, that Christians know the Divine too. I've somehow never doubted that with other religions. Odd.

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Oh great. Now I'm thinking about "Tiger's balls" again.

Another American Gods reference. Better think about Skunk Anansie instead. Really great tunes.

I haven't read American Gods yet, you see.

As a Christian minority, I do find that nasty things are said about my religion by people who have decided not to follow it -- things that I would get in big trouble for saying about their religion.

It's been interesting for me to be who I am here. I come out to potential lovers as Christian. Literally. Come out. At the same point in a relationship where you would disclose STD's or something.

I think in part the bashing is a reaction to perceived oppression before fleeing mother church, but that's no reason to take it out on someone who didn't make the same decision.

I used to come out as multipersonalities at that same stage.

I think it's very unfair that decent people of all religions/identifiable groups get flak for the actions of a few people who would be asses in any situation.

I wrote a more detailed comment, but Netscape ate it, so I'm going to summarize:

As a member of the non-Christian majority (of at least one subculture), I'd like to apologize for the way you've been treated. I try not to bash any group as a whole (or even spend much time on individuals I've determined to be horrible people, but that's because I don't like the effects of bitterness on my psyche and social interactions, not out of any sense of fairness), but I fail sometimes, and I've held some fairly negative views on Christianity.

I also urge you to uncloset yourself, if it's safe to do so. It sounds like you'd be happier that way, and decent human beings who are Christian are very good advertising against Christianity-bashing. Just like members of any large group, a number of Christians[1] are jackasses. If they're the only visible ones, it's easier to stereotype the whole religion as such.

[1] I'm not getting into the who is and who isn't a proper Christian debate, nor do I feel I'm qualified/entitled to. I go by what each person tells me they are, with added assumptions based on jewelry, bumper stickers, etc.

Interesting: When someone claims membership in a large world religion, there's usually no dispute as to whether they actually are or not, even if they do some things that are damned against the rules of said religion.

However, when someone claims membership in a smaller religion with well-defined rules, and then proceeds to violate letter and intent, if only by rumor or presence in a court case, it often comes up in the news as such: "J. Doe, a self-proclaimed <insert faith> is alleged to ..."

Then, again, unless religion figures majorly in the incident, whether or not the person is a member of a major religion of the area usually isn't mentioned. I guess it's assumption that a person's of the majority or agnostic/atheistic unless otherwise specified?

I've seen several mailing lists get sucked into "but that person's not a reeeeaaaal Christian. Reeeeeaaal Christians are people just like me: wise and perfect and good and cool." debates. (The opposing side is usually "No, they're all Christians and they all suck." Once both of these viewpoints have spoken up, it's time to ignore the thread.) I don't think that sort of conversation happens among polite people, but it does indicate that maybe this is a disputed issue, so I made sure to note my take on it.

I think the "a self-proclaimed Fooian" phrase is also used in contrast to "This person's entire family is Fooian and this person has done Fooey things every day all their life." I do think the distinction between, say, someone who converted to Fooianism last week and someone who's been Fooey for years is a valid indication of commitment. I'm not as sure about being born into a Fooey family.

Not reporting that the person is part of the local majority group (in religion or in anything) unless it's relevant to the story is normal reporting behavior, isn't it?

Maybe it's just defensiveness speaking, but in my remembered experience, it's far more likely for J* Doe to be identified as a Fooian where Foo is a minority group of some sort where Foo is irrelevant rather than a Barian where Bar is a majority group and irrelevant. I shall certainly keep watch for such things in the future, to tell me whether or not to correct my perception.

I experience extreme ideological difficulties with people when they claim: "I am a good Barian. Good Barians don't do baz", and then proceed to go and do baz. For certain varieties of Bar, definitions of what a good Barian does and does not do/think/say get sketchy.

I'm under the impression that "self proclaimed fooian" is usually for values of foo where "Fooians do this/don't do this" are hot and bothersome, to avoid heated exchanges with the media service as the flame target. "S/he says s/he's a Fooian; we don't want to have to define Fooianism in all its flavours in our news hour."

I wish I remembered where I saw the extremely good response to this, but I don't, so I'll try to reconstruct:

Assume someone who says "Good Barians shouldn't do baz. I am a good Barian." (note change in phrasing). I'm fine with said person not doing baz. Depending on the severity of baz (eating a forbidden food vs. machine gunning a shopping mall), I'm fine with said person occasionally slipping and doing baz. I'm not fine with said person falling into a pattern of bazzing. I'm also much more comfortable with people slipping on morals which apply to themselves alone (eating that forbidden food, thinking improper thoughts, etc), than with people slipping on morals which apply to other people (hurting people for the hell of it, lying, etc).

I'm convinced people often say the much more restrictive "Good Barians don't do baz." when they mean "Good Barians shouldn't do baz."

I'm still against the concept of saying the thing and then purposefully going and doing baz, or purposefully not preventing oneself from falling into the trap of bazzing. I also think that "goodness" is more of a continuum than a binary.

And, of course, whether or not they do baz, when baz only impacts them, this has no direct impact on the observer (or shouldn't). However, if they claim "I should not do baz because I am a good Barian, and good Barians should not do baz" and go ahead and do baz anyway without the desire to cease -- that's no longer a case of "Doing baz is wrong and you shouldn't", but "You are morally inconsistant in words and actions", and that's usually a Wrong in any given ethical construct.

I doubt it's just defensiveness. Some combination of "adding color and interest to the story" and "look at the silly weird and/or evil Fooians".

I like that explanation of "self-proclaimed". News agencies get enough complaints as is. Reducing complaints without lying or ignoring data would be important to them.

The relevant example of "self-proclaimed" that comes to the top of the mind was:

"Self-proclaimed Wiccan" and "alleged sexual molestation of young teenage females" ...not mentioning that, offhand, the core principle of Wicca is "An it harm none, do as thou wilt, mothafuckas!" (well, the version with the colorful language is certainly more interesting...)

I would have been far happier with Channel 3 if they'd mentioned in passing that "Wiccan" and "sexual molestation of girls" are contradictions in root philosophy. I'd also, for that matter, like to hear some more about the difficulties that the non-molesting variety of Catholic priest working with yeeth (talenteded and otherwise) are going through now that the scandals are coming to spotlight.

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Ooooh, cool quiz! ...and resulting discussion of religion

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Thank you

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Relevance: majority/minority

Good Barians don't do baz.

You said what I meant.

Re: Relevance: majority/minority

Re: Relevance: majority/minority