azurelunatic | Forgiveness, responsibility.

Forgiveness, responsibility.

There's the idea that when someone does something terrible to you, that you are obligated, if you ever want to get anywhere in your life, to forgive them and move on.

But when you don't forgive them, can't forgive them...

It's bad enough that they've done something that's made you miserable and furious. It's bad enough that you had to suffer through the pain it all entailed, and live with it, while they got off relatively easily.

But on top of that, you know, somewhere deep down, that everyone around you, everyone who hasn't gone through the same bullshit, is wondering why you can't just forgive them and move on with your life. Maybe if you loved yourself more, you would be able to find the strength within yourself to forgive the rat bastard? It's what's expected. It's what's done. It's what other people have done in the same circumstances. It's vile and unthinkable, is what it is, and they're expecting you to forgive this ratassed monkeyfucker for existing, and coming in contact with your life? I think not!

Yet the expectation is there. Forgive them, and move on. You won't be whole until/unless you do. And then there's the guilt. Is there something wrong with me, that I can't forgive this person, even though they are an asshole loser? The guilt becomes more damaging than the anger.

Sometimes an unfelt forgiveness is extracted. They kneel at your feet, begging forgiveness; you are pressured into saying, "I forgive you," just so they'll leave you alone. But you don't. You haven't. You can't. It's impossible.

If you don't forgive them, don't forgive them. It may take a lifetime to feel like you might forgive them. But until you do actually feel no rage, no anger, no resentment, no deep-lasting hurt... you haven't forgiven them, and to say you have, or feel you should, would be a dangerous lie, an evil self-deception.

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This is excellent...and very true. I'm putting this in my memories. Thanks.

And thank you, for being able to get something out of it. It's the expansion of the brainstorm I had yesterday.

I used to think/be led to think similar things. If I was good enough, if I loved myself enough, if I wasn't crazy, well, then, your boorish behavior wouldn't bother me.

It's not true.

Well, if you hadn't been crazy and had loved yourself enough, their boorish behavior probably would have stopped bothering you, after you'd cockslapped them and gagged them with their own dirty underwear and told them in no uncertain terms that they WOULD quit it.

Then, since they wouldn't be doing it anymore, it wouldn't have bothered you in the slightest.

Forgiveness is not supposed to be for the other person's benefit. It's not supposed to be for the benefit of the people around you, no matter what they say. They can't guilt-trip you or rationalize you into forgiving. Forgiveness is for your sake only. It's a gift you give to yourself. Which means that if forgiving doesn't help you directly, it's worthless.

If your attempts to forgive only rip your wounds open wider, then it's not really forgiveness. It's just more pain you're being compelled to inflict on yourself. True forgiveness heals you. Only you know when that's going to happen... if ever.

Sure, many people have been in similar situations. Sure, many of them have forgiven the other person. I certainly have. Hey, in the grand scheme of things, if I take 15 years to forgive someone, it still counts. The people who objected to waiting 15 years always had the option of finding someone else to hang out with. If I take 50 years to do it, same deal.

Don't worry about what other people think. People like to encourage others to improve and heal themselves, but nobody seems to want to wait for it to happen properly. Healing isn't instantaneous; it takes a hell of a long time if you want to do it right.

So do it right. You don't even have to start the healing process until you're good and ready to, whenever that may be. Maybe acknowledging and embracing your pain will help you burn it off faster and healthier. Anyone who has something to say about that can go take a flying leap.

That is my current favorite advice to misguided people these days: "Oh, hey, I know what you can do to help! Take a flying leap!" This seems to annoy most people, but, after all, that's the point. :)

Happily for me, I'm not mad at good ol' Shawn anymore. Things happened, and I suddenly realized that I was able to forgive him. This, of course, was after someone who actually cared about me walked me through all the fun and happy things that had happened, and made sure I was OK.

This was a rant that I felt I had to make, because there was rather too much of something buzzing around in the air, and it needed to be said.

I've been through this.

There are two things you're missing. First, the person-who-was-wrong must actually be sorry, not just want to be forgiven.

Second aspect, if you do manage to forgive someone and they haven't changed, you cannot hold absolved sins against them and therefore cannot prepare for what you know will happen.

There are unforgivable things. And it is good to say, "No." No matter what happens, it's okay to never tell them they are forgiven. If you decide you want to forgive someone, it's your business. No need for them to know. Seems fair that they should eternally be unsure.

I have discovered that the big proponents of obligatory forgiveness are people who haven't suffered more than the emotional equivalent of a skinned knee. If after a some time, you find that maintaining the enduring anger is not worth the effort, then re-evaluate.

Only forgive someone when you are ready to do so. And keep in mind that forgiving someone who isn't genuinely sorry can actually put you in danger. Those kinds of people will do it again and you will not be prepared.

I think the distinction between "forgive" and "forget" is important here. It's possible to forgive someone something -- to not be angry at them or fearful of them, to stop thinking of what they did at unrelated times, to not avoid them or snap at them -- without forgetting that they did and what that implies about them. If someone borrows my treasured thingymabob and leaves it out in the rain, I may or may not forgive them, but either way I'm less likely to lend them my treasured whatsit when they ask.

There's sort of a gray area of things that might be related to the original fault. I think it's reasonable to assume that the person who left the thingymabob in the rain is in general less likely to be responsible about other things, like showing up on time or babysitting, but I'm not sure where the line is. It might be one of those "I'm learning from my mistakes; you're having trouble forgiving; that person's holding a grudge" things.

I have long since forgiven Shawn for erasing all the data on my calculator, even the notes I needed for the math final the next day.

I have not forgotten it. I am much less likely to give him mission-critical items or data without making sure there is a viable backup plan in place. Just because I do not hold a grudge (over *that* incident) does not mean that I am stupid.

I'm with

boojum, and think that there's a very distinct difference between forgiveness and what you're talking about.

Forgiveness, to me, is not being mad at them for that specific offense anymore. I have long since forgiven Shawn for erasing all the data on my programmable graphing calculator, even the things I needed for the math final. I have not forgotten, and am unlikely to give him anything mission-critical without having a backup copy somewhere. Forgiving does not mean leaving your ass unguarded.

There's a difference between still holding their sins against them, and realizing that they are likely to repeat their actions.

My own rant about anger and forgiveness

And, from another post:

"sometimes, you can recognize that someone may not have meant to hurt you, but the real consequences of their actions, the damage, was so great that you still can't forgive them. It doesn't mean they are bad people; it means that some things, once done, can't be taken back or mended. I feel that way about my parents. I feel that way about some more recent, though not extremely recent, events as well. People may not have meant to make me feel ripped apart, savaged, like everything I'd done was a waste, all because I didn't see things the way they wanted me to and wasn't the person they wanted me to be, they may not have wanted to make me gun shy of ever teaching or priestessing again, but that's what happened. And, no, I can't forgive it. Nor do I see this as a failing on my part. Forgiveness is not a right; it can never be demanded and certainly should never be presumed."

Forgiveness should never be a foregone conclusion. Some deserve it, and some do not, and you (as the injured party) get to decide who goes into which category.

As somebody noted above, there are some acts which are beyond forgiveness, and these acts change with the individual who has been harmed. It's a complex calculus and, again, nobody can assign values to the variables but you.

As a corollary, I think revenge has gotten a bad rap over the past few decades. There are times when it is perfectly logical and reasonable to seek revenge. I don't advocate it in all instances, of course, but neither do I automatically rule it out.

Good luck with resolving your situation.

Oh, it's been taken care of; this is just the rehash.

For me 'forgiveness' generally means coming to terms with the event and then being ok with the person. I've never understood 'forgive and forget' - I thing the 'forget' part is pretty fscking stupid. If someone wrongs you, you don't want to forget about it - that's makes it easy for them to do it again. I say remember and learn.

But there is something else, something I don't know the right word for. The closest I can come is 'acceptance'. There are things in my past that others did to me that I *cannot* forgive, because they will never be ok and I will never be comfortable with that person again. I cut them out of my life and want to keep it that way because they completely and utterly destroyed my ability to trust them. That doesn't mean I dwell on it or that I let it mess up my life - I came to accept the events as part of my life, since I can't undo the past, and I'm ok with it. They are part of who I am now because they shaped me. But I did not forgive them and never intend to. It would take overwhleming proof for me to accept they had changed and were worthy of my time, let alone my trust, again.

I haven't had anything happen, yet, that I think I won't be able to forgive, eventually.

Well, OK, maybe BJ.

But that would be forgiving him for being, like, *born*.

ugh, I have gone to tactically nuclear with people on the whole forgive and forget or even just the "you must forgive" bullshit it's not even funny. One thing no one has brought up is it's a really huge RELIGIOUS concept, specific religions not to be named, and a couple of them I don't buy ANYTHING they say because about 70% of thier whole point of religious reference has been re written by misogynistic political figures.

I have had therapists give me the whole "you will never heal from the trauma you've been through until you forgive" crap, my own husband even tries to unload that on me....the two therapists I have learned the MOST from and who HAVE helped me heal to the extent I have basically had the same viewpoint...that it's complete and utter bullshit.

Some things, like someone torturing you, molesting you, raping you, abusing you....are not and will never be forgivable and if you do forgive someone for such things you need even MORE psych treatment. Resentment and anger about such things is healthy, normal, a survival skill and expected. One of my therapists actually thought it great that since the two people who kidnapped and tortured me died many years ago via violent crimes (couldn't have happened to more deserving people) and I don't have confrontational closure available, even in writing a letter, I've come up with this plan to figure out where they are buried, dance on thier graves, dig up thier bones and piss on them.

Yeah, okay, sounds pretty damn insane, but two different therapists have said it's the best form of post mortem closure they've ever heard of. Just make sure I have a look out, do it at night and don't get caught.

On the other hand, I've come to forgive my parents for thier ignorance and neglect of me as I was growing up. They STILL have trouble getting around the concept that they have that mental illness, no matter what has happened to you, is not real! You're just being lazy or willful or contrary!

Sigh.

but I realize that's ignorant shortcomings on thier part, directly out of the way they were raised and the fact that they never really learned the logic or skill of learning about new things.. the whole "if it was good enough for my parents, I don't understand why I have to learn something new or change" mentality....

Forgiveness isn't a blanket thing, it's something that should be applied appropriately, like pretty much everything.

It sounds like a delightful plan. I should make a note to do that to my ex BJ as soon as he bites it.

we could start a national fad!

actually, it's something my grandmother used to threaten to do to people that pissed her off, I figured hey, why threaten!! It's the ultimate in "I survived regardless of you, and you didn't!" vengence.

I think it's some old Irish concept. The Irish are great for dreaming up crap like that.

I suppose it would be the height of disrespect to literally squick someone, post mortem.

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Forgiveness, responsibility.

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