gender/pronouns: still hating everything

[azurelunatic]

It's useful for me to know that anything that smacks of Other People Dictating Things still makes me explode.

Even when it's not meant to do that.

So there's a love meme; one of the things about this love meme that's meant to be helpful is pronoun listing. And I've got pronouns posted in my profile.

The thing is, it turns out (and I've amended my profile a bit, though it's always said that people who actually know me, and I'm thinking for example that zarhooie would ACTUALLY KNOW ME, (and I have picked her as an example given that she's my braintwin and all ♥ not because she's done anything that warrants calling out) should use pronouns appropriate to how they know me) that at least in part, I view gender on the internet as a privacy thing. (And that was a fun exercise in nested sentence structure, like unto my teenage emails with boojum; the gender topic BRINGS IT ALL BACK.)

Therefore, I am *simultaneously*:
- preferring that people who know me with a level of emotional intimacy to have been allowed through my various defensive layers be allowed to use individual pronouns, including binary gendered ones, in public
- not wanting to explicitly out myself in a prominent place as someone who ought to receive discrimination as a woman
- flailing angrily over the idea that people who know me with great emotional intimacy and are therefore allowed to use appropriate binary gendered pronouns might mistake instructions meant for people who don't know me from the next Lunatic as an indirect communication that They Are Doing It Wrong
- and then there *still are* situations where plural/gender-neutral pronouns are the most appropriate ones.

GENDER IS HARD AND I HATE IT.

Comments

[mathsnerd]

:/ *offers tea and chocolate and smacks gender on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper for you*

[azurelunatic]

Bad gender! No biscuit!

[silveradept]

Yes, yes it is. It sounds more like the difficulties of trying to make sure you have the appropriate level of politeness in speaking Japanese.

*offers tea*

[azurelunatic]

... yes.

Very yes.

*sips tea*

[azurelunatic]

(and I am in conversation with the host of the love meme, who has patched up the index nicely. Yay!)

The thing is, even though gender-labeling on love memes can be very helpful, it seems like it's only helpful in situations where people are strongly gendered -- whether that gender is male, female, neutral, or other. It seems intended in two ways: first, to make sure that no one is addressed as a gender that makes them go OH MY GOD NO THIS IS WRONG, and second, to calm the anxiety of people going OH MY GOD WHAT IF I GET SOMEONE'S GENDER WRONG.

It is difficult, but not impossible, to gender me in a way that makes me go OH MY GOD THIS IS WRONG. It turns out that a surefire way to do that is to attempt to define my pronouns.

I feel like a heel for saying this, but I could give a rat's ass about the anxiety of strangers upon assigning gendered pronouns to me. In fact, if someone does not know me personally but wishes to pronoun me, I want them to feel a moment of fearful confusion. For, in that moment, they may have comprehended my gender.

[jjhunter]

Thank you again for getting in touch, and for the thoughtful followup conversation; as I wrote previously, I definitely have some work to do re: how to better model / moderate pronoun etiquette for the next time I host such a meme.

Anyway, I'm very much looking forward to revisiting this post with further thoughts this weekend after I've had some more time to let stuff percolate. In the meantime, a question for you: would you be comfortable with this post being added to the meme's recommended readings post?

(Part of me thinks everyone should read it & your comment here, especially

I feel like a heel for saying this, but I could give a rat's ass about the anxiety of strangers upon assigning gendered pronouns to me. In fact, if someone does not know me personally but wishes to pronoun me, I want them to feel a moment of fearful confusion. For, in that moment, they may have comprehended my gender.

because it is awesome.)

[azurelunatic]

I would be comfortable with that.

I'm glad you liked that bit; I felt I'd stumbled onto something crucial when I caught that thought in mid-flight.

[jjhunter]

\o/ Added!

I felt I'd stumbled onto something crucial when I caught that thought in mid-flight.

It reads like the best kind of poetry to me - the kind that bypasses all defenses and catalyzes the heart.

[azurelunatic]

And copied over from that conversation as well:

My gender, like ogres, onions, and parfaits, has layers; people who don't know me using feminine pronouns basically does not bother me; anything, no matter how well-meant, that smacks of enforcing any pronoun on my behalf to people who are close to me is not acceptable. (I have no problems with enforcing pronouns on my own as appropriate, but "appropriate" is so *incredibly slippery* that any rule I write down is likely to be wrong within the month and specifically wrong for any fine-grained situation; I trust the judgment of the people close to me to either get it right, or that it's safe to assume good intent.)

[elf]

For myself, I mentioned that "She is accurate; all other pronouns are entertaining; I can't say I have a preference."

A couple of years ago, we decided the official pronoun of #Yuletide was "Batman." That was a fascinating chat session.

I'm sorry the pronoun drama at the love meme gives you distress. :(

[azurelunatic]

*cackles* My follow-up to the #yuletide bit would be an embed of that video about what happens to alkaline metals when you put them in water.

The pronoun thing has the benefit of bothering me in a novel way, which means I can learn from it.

Edit:
Also, having had the time to reflect, having this happen when touched off by the well-intentioned actions of someone I like, is actually the least bad way to have this happen. Not the most pleasant thing in the world, but the other party is blameless and I'm not a seething ball of resentment. (I was a seething ball of resentment at first, but at the situation and myself; now that the thread's been relabeled in the index and I've had a chance to swear at work spreadsheets, I have appreciably chilled out, and at no point was I actually resenting the other party.) Now, had it been someone who I do not like doing this? All bets are off, and I don't like me when I'm angry.

[avanti_90]

A couple of years ago, we decided the official pronoun of #Yuletide was "Batman." That was a fascinating chat session.

Most brilliant thing ever.

[elf]

It led to sentences like "Neal ran Batman's hands down Elizabeth's shoulders and unhooked Batman's bra."

[avanti_90]

That is clear proof of brilliance.

[firecat]

This post and the whole comment thread are awesome. I especially like the bit about privacy. I first began to use GNPs (zie/zir) for myself because I didn't want to identify my gender online. Only later did I decide that they actually could be said to describe my gender (on alternate Tuesdays, anyway).

[avanti_90]

I think declaring 'Batman' the official pronoun is the best idea ever. I should have done this on the love meme.

[not_a_sniglet]

We feel your pain. Most of the time, for us, plural/gender neutral pronouns are appropriate, but not always, by any means, and we also view gender on the Internet as a privacy thing so hi. I think we're in agreement with you.

[azurelunatic]

And I'm *really* glad that this happened in a pretty safe space with someone I know, like, and have expectations of goodwill with; I do not like to think how very poorly I would have reacted if someone who is strike-anywhere matches to my sandpaper had done the same thing. I like knowing what the hell is going on in my head, and knowing where my fucking landmines are.

[syntaxofthings]

I feel like a heel for saying this, but I could give a rat's ass about the anxiety of strangers upon assigning gendered pronouns to me. In fact, if someone does not know me personally but wishes to pronoun me, I want them to feel a moment of fearful confusion. For, in that moment, they may have comprehended my gender.

Best. Quote. Ever. While I am technically a woman, and I haven't thought about it as much as other people have, I really appreciate those [admittedly few] times on the Internet when someone mistakes me for male. Because, dammit, my gender is not as important as my ideas and my personality and what I add to the conversation. Sometimes I don't even feel like my gender is me. So I go along with female because male doesn't feel more accurate and gender-neutral would just be hard to get used to and I am just confused about it all. I'd rather everyone else hang out in that confusion, too.

Ohhhh, this:

- not wanting to explicitly out myself in a prominent place as someone who ought to receive discrimination as a woman

Another reason that I dislike gender on the internet (actually, and in person, too) is because of all the baggage that comes with being female! I'm into doing things with my hair and makeup. Therefore I must be like every other woman and also into babies and pastels and cute things, right? Ha. No. I really enjoy dressing up very femininely and then discussing why Star Trek: The Next Generation is so great with the guys. It's just - STEREOTYPES. Because of gender! They do not work! And make me less inclined to want to identify as $gender.

Totally went on about this. Wow.

[untonuggan]

^^ This.